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Post by mkk on Mar 7, 2008 0:12:05 GMT -1
somebody post more of the questions!
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Post by cvillecmd on Mar 7, 2008 13:32:05 GMT -1
Yes, who has the questions- we are not being the best bookclub ever, are we? I'll look online for something...
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Post by cvillecmd on Mar 7, 2008 13:38:25 GMT -1
Ok, here are some questions I found online. I've never been in a book club, much less an online one. Do we just go one question at a time, or do people answer whatever they want and not worry about all of them?
1. Non-maternal, ambivalent mothers are one of the last taboos -- and Eva is a prime example. Were her motives for having a baby entirely selfish? And if so, how much can that have factored into the outcome of an abnormally difficult baby and apathetic child? Incontrast to Kevin, Celia was loving, needy and sweet -- and her mother's favorite, if not her father's. By the very end of the novel, has Eva's love for Kevin, or at least her primitive loyalty to him, finally become unconditional? How does this fit in with the feminist ideal of motherhood?
2. Is Eva's view of Kevin colored by her ambivalence about motherhood in general, or perhaps by hindsight knowledge of his eventual violence? Is Eva responsible for creating a child she sees as a monster, or was he a monster all along?
3. Eva's tone changes throughout the course of her letter-writing. She is in turns angry, frustrated and mystified. Could you describe Eva as a loving mother -- in deed if not in thought? Was Kevin overly indulged by a parenting style that let him potty train and learn at his own pace?
4. Did the inclusion of a child into Eva and Franklin's stable, loving relationship cause the rift between them? Did the fact of a child threaten their marriage? How was Kevin perceived as a threat by Eva from conception? What expectations did Eva have of motherhood and how did she meet the reality of it? Was Franklin unsupportive of Eva?
5. The irony of Eva having read Robin Hood to an ailing, needy Kevin at a time of almost shocking mother-son bonding is played out in the way Kevin massacred his fellow students and the teacher who took an interest in him. Since it is Eva who connects Kevin's fevered state with her recollection of his unusual interest in anything whatsoever, is it possible that Kevin's methods were meant to figuratively slay his mother?
6. After Eva throws Kevin across the room, she takes him to the hospital. She confesses later on to Franklin, "However much I deserved rebuke, I still preferred the slow burn of private self-excoriation to the hot lash of public reproof." Are Eva's letters to Franklin her form of self-excoriation, though she is suffering public reproof as the mother of a mass murderer?
8. Does Eva feel responsible for Kevin's series of nasty deeds and childhood "pranks?" Does she think she could have prevented any of it? Does she come to realize why Kevin would harm other children or does she give up trying to understand? How can we sympathize with a mother and father who saw all the warning signs but failed to stop the violence?
9. Given that the story is told from Eva's perspective only, can she be trusted as reliable? How do you think Franklin's version of events would have differed? Might Eva choose to portray Kevin in childhood as more wicked than he really was, if only to make her seem less culpable for his crimes as a teenager?
10. What were Eva's reasons for having a second child? Did Franklin forgive her for the deception? Was she repentant? How closely were her expectations met and was she gratified? How did Franklin's attitude toward Kevin and Celia differ?
12. Toward the end of the novel, it is revealed that Kevin has more complicated feelings about his mother and some of the 9 people he murdered. This gives us a hint as to why he might have carefully planned and carried out Thursday. Does he seem pathetic or more deserving of compassion because he may have had a motive, after all?
13. At the conclusion of the novel, did you find Eva sympathetic in a way you may not have initially? Do you think Eva has sympathy and forgiveness for herself? Is she able to accept Kevin, and to see his personality as, however uncomfortably, akin to her own?
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Post by cvillecmd on Mar 7, 2008 13:39:52 GMT -1
I think we should do one question at a time, one question a day (otherwise this could drag on far longer than we remember the book) that way we can discuss. Or should we do two days per question? This is just our first experiment one. So maybe next time we'll have the whole thing down!
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Post by bagpuss on Mar 7, 2008 15:02:55 GMT -1
With both children she was entirely selfish; she became pregnant with Kevin because she couldn't face losing Franklin and having nothing left of him. And she became pregnant with Celia so she had a child that was "hers".
When she had Kevin, she resented him for being the cause of her loss of independence. I think she had perhaps changed her mind about having a child while she was still pregnant, and in order to cope with that awful feeling her subconscious decided that Kevin was a difficult child, a nasty child, one who enjoyed being malicious.
Is Eva's love/loyalty to Kevin now unconditional? I'm not sure - he does start to show his admiration for his mother through the interviews with the media. When he was really ill, it was only his mother he wanted. When she decorated her study and he covered it with ink, he grins at her; she interprets it as a malicious glee, but perhaps it was the smile of a child who thinks he's been helping Mommy? Both she and Kevin are incredibly stubborn. Perhaps she is realising that she and he have more in common than she ever liked to admit.
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Post by cvillecmd on Mar 7, 2008 17:09:34 GMT -1
That's a difficult one for me. I agree somewhat with you Bagpuss, about the selfish part in wanting to have Kevin. But on the other hand, I can also understand that some women may be hesitant or ambivalant about having children. And it is kind of one of those things that you can't really figure out unless you have them. And she did decide that Kevin was a nasty child, and we only heard her point of view on the situation, but it also does seemt hat he actually IS a nasty child. I know a couple, the father wanted to have a child so bad, the mother didn't- she wasn't ready to give up her independence, didn't know if she wanted to be a mother at all, but she caved and got pregnanant. The whole time she was pregnant she was bitter and angry, she wanted to have a drink, she wanted to do the things she used to do and couldn't- due to the child. When the boy was born she also deicded that the child was difficult and hard to handle. She barely picked the baby up, was not motherly, quit breastfeeding after a week because she was tired of it and wanted to drink again. But this kid has turned out to be a sweetheart. I can hardly believe it myself given the attitude of his mother, but he is just a great, happy, smart, healthy kid. So I don't think that Eva's ambivalance and attitude completely made Kevin into the difficult child he is. Yes, there is something to be said about the self-fulfilling prophecy, and I think there was some of that here, but I don't think her attitude and treatment of her unborn baby, and then child can be completely to blame for what happens with Kevin.
I think in the end her loyalty to him becomes unconditional but not neccesarily her love. I think at that point she is starting to love him as her child, but I don't believe that the love she is offering is unconditional, but her loyalty yes. From my point of view she does not love Kevin through most of the novel, but at some level always remains a loyal parent. Not loyal in allowing him to get away with things or taking his side, but still offering parenting and protection at the most minimal, basic level. For example when the neighboring parents come over to complain about Kevin and she almost defends Kevin's behavior.
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Post by mkk on Mar 7, 2008 21:07:40 GMT -1
so we're just addressing the first question, i'm assuming. well, i think that some mothers (and fathers) just really don't have the 'mommy gene'. one of my neighbors is like that. she tries to hide it and she loves her kids to death but works full time and they've been in daycare since day one. they are adorable kids and don't really seem to have suffered. i don't know them intimately and they are all girls, much younger than my kids, but they seem very happy, smart and well adjusted. so i don't think that was the cause of kevin's psycho behavior. i do think she had kevin for selfish reasons, but how many of us really think it through when we have kids? or even know what you are up against? and your feelings change so much throughout the pregnancy and in raising them. my book had a chapter that was titled 'is lionel shriver extreme?' the author wrote that some people had questioned the book and the subject matter and the fact that she never had any children of her own. i guess i just kept reminding myself as i read the book 'this is only a story, not real life'. and it does seem to have inconsistancies. these were my observations as i was reading the book: Trust your instincts, they’re there for a reason. She should have had that kid committed long before the incident with Celia happened. Some people are just psychopaths (I think). There will always be the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world, who knows what went wrong? Make sure your husband backs down when it comes to your instincts and the kids…….don’t go power hungry but you are the one that has the feel for them. You need to nip incidents in the bud, before they escalate out of control and you get into the habit of looking the other way. If she couldn’t have nipped these strange behaviors in the bud, they would have realized that he was a psycho. edited because i was rambling and sounding a little crazy.
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Post by Karo on Mar 8, 2008 8:52:16 GMT -1
some people had questioned the book and the subject matter and the fact that she never had any children of her own. i guess i just kept reminding myself as i read the book 'this is only a story, not real life'. and it does seem to have inconsistancies. That was one of the things I noticed: although she is describing her son, it never ever feels like she's a mother. Kevin is just a nasty person who lives with her, never her son. I'm not a mother yet, but that really seemed strange to me. So Lionel Shriver doesn't have any children herself? Hm. That does make the whole thing less believable, for me at least.
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Post by cvillecmd on Mar 8, 2008 12:40:31 GMT -1
I don't know Karo, these exact things are happening all across America. How many school shootings have we had now? And you always hear that the kids were the type who fed firecrackers to squirrels to watch them blow up, tortured dogs and neighbor kids, beat frogs with baseball bats, stole stuff from the local market- just really BAD, psychotic kids. I know it is hard to believe, particularly now as you are becomming a mother, but there are actually women who don't feel motherly. I have a hard time understanding it myself but I see the person I mentioned before, how the whole time she was pregnant she was miserable- not morning sickness miserable- but this thing is messing with my space, my body, my lifestyle miserable, the same way when he was born. A part of me feels sorry for her, she had told her husband before they were married she didn't know if she wanted kids, she told him the whole time he and his mother and family were pressuring her- she did not want kids. But she finally caved and just like she suspected, is miserable as a mother. When this woman describes her now 6 year old she sais something like "oh, he's nice" Nice? He's 6! What else? Is he your little munchkin? Is he a ball of energy? Is he fun? He's just "oh he's nice". So I actually could believe a lot of the story, though I have never been a mother myself, so that probably made a difference.
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Post by Karo on Mar 8, 2008 14:42:01 GMT -1
Well OK. I was just speculating there. A lot of writers write about stuff they haven't necessarily experienced themselves. As a structural device in the novel, it is very well done then. Eva not only says she doesn't want that child, she also echoes that with her choice of language. Still don't like her
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Post by bagpuss on Mar 8, 2008 22:13:30 GMT -1
I'm with Karo.
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Post by bagpuss on Jun 24, 2008 15:08:29 GMT -1
Right, you lot!!! Let's get our arses in gear! Or rather let's just discuss books with similar themes, authors, etc. I just read one Jodi Picoult book, and am half-way through another (The Pact, and Nineteen Minutes). Thought provoking stuff. Nineteen Minutes is very similar in its theme to We Need To Talk About Kevin; a teenage boy shoots up the school. In Picoult's book though, there are several viewpoints. His mother, a friend, the friend's mother, the lawyer etc. And the structure is brilliant. Lots of flashbacks, etc. Will give you a better review when I finish. Anyone read anything else by Jodi Picoult? Or anything on a similar theme of teenage outsiders, family breakdown in small town America, or something completely different? Perhaps you would like to share it with the class? Has anyone else read any of her stuff?
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Post by sheila on Jun 24, 2008 17:56:29 GMT -1
Jodi Picoult is a master at tough situations that so many people have had to face. My favorite of her books (that I have read) is My Sister's Keeper. Deadly fantastic book.
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Post by bagpuss on Jun 24, 2008 20:22:38 GMT -1
That's next on my list, actually! ;D
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Post by dearling on Jun 24, 2008 21:39:32 GMT -1
I've read pretty much of Picoult's stuff. I enjoy her stuff, particularly My Sister's Keeper.
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Post by Karo on Jun 26, 2008 14:24:30 GMT -1
OK, I'll get that next. Will report back in a few weeks or years, depending on the baby's sleeping habits.
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Post by sheila on Jun 26, 2008 18:14:57 GMT -1
Sleep habits don't tend to matter with that book. You'll likely finish it in 2 days or less.
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Post by bagpuss on Jun 27, 2008 11:54:53 GMT -1
Have finished "Nineteen Minutes". Have started "The Tenth Circle" today, and have "Plain Truth" ready.
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Post by tc on Jul 7, 2008 13:56:42 GMT -1
I've just started Lionel Shriver's Double Fault. Anyone else read this yet?
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Post by cvillecmd on Jul 7, 2008 14:21:52 GMT -1
TC, when you come to visit, bring me a couple of your old books. Nothing you want to keep, just stuff you are ready to pass on, even junk. I'm out of English language reading material, and reading in Italian at night doesn't have the same relaxing effect as reading in my native language
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Post by tc on Jul 9, 2008 8:22:21 GMT -1
will do x
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grayite
More likely to stay here
Posts: 66
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Post by grayite on Jul 12, 2008 21:31:07 GMT -1
I'm reading three things at the same time;
Moral Disorder - Margaret Atwood Fight Club - Chuck Palahniuk Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar: Understanding Philosophy Through Jokes - Thomas Cathcart, Daniel Klein
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Post by tc on Jul 29, 2008 14:55:56 GMT -1
C, started any of the books I gave you yet?
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Post by dearling on Jul 29, 2008 16:10:24 GMT -1
Just finished Twilight - all the teeners are into it, so I've got toread the series. Enjoyable. Great descriptions of "wanting" (for lack of a better word).
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Post by Kez on Aug 11, 2008 12:40:49 GMT -1
I'm reading Tony Parson's new book which is actually alright. I thought I would hate it but it's actually really well written. Do not read the summary on the back of the book jacket though cos it gives the entire plot away. Really pissed off about that.
Also just finished Anita Shreve's A Wedding In December which is exactly the sort of book I love. She reminds me of Anne Tyler quite a bit. Lots of reminiscing and dark secrets and big revelations set in beautiful picturesque surroundings.
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Post by sheila on Aug 11, 2008 13:53:37 GMT -1
Yeah, I'd like to read more Anita Shreve. Have only read "the Weight of Water" and really liked it. I've just finished a couple Stephen King books- hadn't read anything by him in ages. I read Duma Key and Hearts in Atlantis, then watched Hearts in Atlantis with Anthony Hopkins. Is it a universal constant that all books must be ruined when made into a movie? I'd like to see the movie The Kite Runner but I'm just so afraid they've f'd it all up.
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Post by Kez on Aug 20, 2008 10:35:32 GMT -1
Is Hearts in Atlantis any good Sheila? I can't get into any of his recent stuff.
Ooh I'm reading A Thousand Splendid Suns, the novel he wrote after The Kite Runner. Pretty good so far, makes for quite harrowing reading though....
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Post by sheila on Aug 22, 2008 23:30:05 GMT -1
I really liked Hearts Kez. It's not horror at all. A bit of supernatural, and an interesting look at the 60s. It's basically 4 different stories that come together, it really kept me interested.
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Post by debyvr on Aug 29, 2008 11:34:08 GMT -1
I've read Kevin, it was pretty good. Let me know what the next book is, since I had Ava I haven't read much and I used to be a bookworm
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Post by dearling on Sept 2, 2008 17:25:32 GMT -1
Just bought myself 4 books yesterday! I'm not allowed to touch them until the flights, though because I have so much to get done - two Tim O'Brien books, two Joyce Carol Oates and something else that I can't recall.....
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