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Post by mkk on Feb 5, 2008 23:30:49 GMT -1
done.
oh.my.god........i will hold my comments till everyone is done but can i say that everytime i would go back to 'my real world' from reading the book, i was so thankful and happy about my life!
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Post by mkk on Feb 6, 2008 1:08:32 GMT -1
okay, who wants it? i'm ready to pass it on.
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Hartleys
More of a ginger twonk
Posts: 31
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Post by Hartleys on Feb 6, 2008 8:08:59 GMT -1
Thanks Bagpuss, arrived in prestigne condition this morning
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Post by bagpuss on Feb 6, 2008 8:19:44 GMT -1
Thanks Bagpuss, arrived in prestigne condition this morning Blimey! That was quick! I posted it about 4pm last night! And you're welcome, by the way. Hope you enjoy it.
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Post by dearling on Feb 6, 2008 15:03:46 GMT -1
Oh, and any stateside folks want it? I forgot to ask that when I finished.
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Post by Kez on Feb 7, 2008 21:10:30 GMT -1
Courtney- D Mary- R Kez-D Katiemay- D TC- D Hen- R Karo - D Katie (dearling) - Done baby Ange - R Baggie - D
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Post by mkk on Feb 7, 2008 22:57:30 GMT -1
Courtney- D Mary- D Kez-D Katiemay- D TC- D Hen- R Karo - D Katie (dearling) - Done baby Ange - R Baggie - D
so, can someone post the questions? i didn't have those in my book, i had a little blurb that said "is lionel shriver extreme?"
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Post by Kez on Feb 7, 2008 23:03:35 GMT -1
OK I'll post the first question which is probably the main question that is on your mind throughout the book. Am just off to bed now....
"Was Kevin born wicked, or is his cold heart the inevitable consequence of an unaffectionate mother? Does the novel answer this question? And do you think the answer to this classic "nature versus nurture" debate - whether character is formed by one's environment or is innate - has to be one or the other?"
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Post by tc on Feb 7, 2008 23:05:34 GMT -1
born wocked.
sorry, best yoer gonna get after 10 vodkas.
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Post by mkk on Feb 7, 2008 23:07:49 GMT -1
yeah, i think i can sum it up with my first impression after reading 'some people are just psychopaths'
i'm sorry, i broke the rule, but so did tc!
10 vodkas?!!
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Post by astralweeks on Feb 8, 2008 1:11:14 GMT -1
Ok, book has now arrived and I started it last night. Late though so I didn't read for long as it takes a bit to get into her style of writing. Read a bit more of it at lunchtime. I actually don't mind her so far. I think she's saying stuff that many people think but know that society will come down on them for saying. Having said that, I'm only 3 'letters' in so I may change my mind. Have to say, and this may sound stupid, but I'm disappointed it's fiction. I ordered it thinking it was actually a true story!! Not because of anything any of you said but because it was the Specialist Child Consultant at work that first recommended I read it (saying it was harrowing). We usually read and swap biographical works about children with behavioural issues so I just assumed this was one of them. Still..............I'll forge on Should get it read over the long weekend ahead or next week (my week off before the new job).
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Post by henriette on Feb 8, 2008 7:53:02 GMT -1
I *hope* I'll finish it this weekend but to be honest I'm only about half-way through *smacks self* READ BITCH, REEEAD! Right, that motivated me...
So far I can't help but think/feel 'born wicked' - even though I don't actually believe that people can be born wicked... (does that even make sense, do you know what I mean?)
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Post by Karo on Feb 8, 2008 8:57:10 GMT -1
Well, I suppose our character is determined by our genes to some extent. Can I be one of those fence-sitters and say that he's an unfortunate mix of bad genes and a mother with the wrong attitude? BTW there was this programme on a couple of weeks ago, something about helping mums and babies to bond. I didn't watch it (should've!), but the thingy in the telly mag said that there was one mum who couldn't love her baby, and the baby (only a few months old) in turn refused to look her in the eye... They do feel it, those little ones!
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Post by Kez on Feb 8, 2008 14:57:09 GMT -1
SKIP THIS POST IF YOU HAVEN'T READ ALL OF BOOK!!!!
Well I think it is a really difficult situation - you're reading it all from her point of view so you have to do a lot of reading in between the lines.
I think that she suffers from post natal depression and her husband being the man that he is isn't inclined to any sort of sympathy (his reaction to her being struck down with pnuemonia for instance, he thinks she's "tricking" him even when her temperature is 103).
She never states it in the book but I think the fact that she is depressed really affects the way she looks at Kevin, she sees him as "purposely" screaming all day until her husband gets home.
I really can't believe people are born evil, I think its the environment we grow up in. Kevin grows up in a highly privileged background and is highly intelligent and is patently aware of his mother's negative attitude towards America. I really think the relationship between him and his mother is really interesting, particularly towards the end where she finds out what happened to the photo and the "gift in the box". I also think that to some extent the killings are a bizarre gesture to her, a kind of "you talk about the patheticness of America but I did something about it". The scathing way that Eva talks about the students who were murdered, she subjects each one to a bit of a character assassination herself.
His relationship with his Dad it is the sort of relationship that you would expect someone to balk against and end up going a bit loopers, all this All-American dad bollocks. Eva knows its bullshit and so does Kevin - one of their many simililarities in the book and one of the many reasons Kevin sees Eva as a hypocrite, I think.
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Post by katiemay on Feb 8, 2008 16:24:49 GMT -1
Good points Kez.
I have to disagree about the born evil bit. Well, on a slightly smaller scale perhaps. My brother has a daughter that I say was born with an evil spirit. She certainly didn't learn it from her parents as they are very kind and giving and gentle people. When my niece was only 3 or 4 months old, and I'd call her name, (all baby talk like), she would look at me out of the corner of her eye, not moving her head and it was EVIL. Even my SIL would ask me, "is that normal for her to look at me like that? She scares me when she does that." Ok, small example, but my niece has turned out, at age of 7, to be a very disruptive, can't sit still, attention seaking, mean child. Constant calls from the school, (she told a classmate she was stupid and dumb for not knowing the answer) no concept of people's feelings, (asked a girl at school why she wore the same pants for 3 days in a row, has told me my clothing is ugly, told my mother who was overweight she was fat and ugly)manipulative (if you don't give me that I'm going to lie to my mom and tell her you hit me) it goes on and on and on. They've had her checked out from doctors and nothing is wrong with her. They struggle with her all the time. She is extremely bright (grade 2 at about a grade 4 level) but when it comes to social, it's all out the window. They have another daughter who is 6 and is the sweetest little thing ever. Complete opposite to her sister. The same two people have birthed two completely different children.
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Post by mkk on Feb 8, 2008 18:29:33 GMT -1
i think there are people that are born like that and they're psychopaths
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Post by cvillecmd on Feb 8, 2008 20:16:52 GMT -1
I do think that some people are just born evil. Eva was not the most loving, motherly mother. However, she wasn't the worst mother I have ever heard of either. I have seen a lot of children with much worse upbringings turn out to be good hearted people. The extent to which Kevin terrorizes her is above and beyond just typical angry kid stuff.
The fact that the dad was so bowled over by Kevin and could not see that the problem went much deeper than your typical "boys will be boys" antics is surprising. In some ways I saw the father as a worse parent in that most of the relationship was theatrical bullshit. The absolute refusal to see Kevin's problems for what they were constitutes neglet in my mind. Punishment and discipline have a great deal of importance in being a good parent and Franklin declined to try and guide his child, instead opting for the easy way out of pushing it aside.
I hadn't thought about the things Kez mentioned, but great points Kez! I agree mostly except for the born evil bit- but the part you mentioned about the killings being a jesture to her is a good one.
I have more to say, but need to refresh my memory on some things first.
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Post by Kez on Feb 9, 2008 18:07:04 GMT -1
I don't know. See the born evil thing, I dont even think you have to have bad parents for it to happen, its just your environment and how you respond to it. That's sad about your niece though, hope her parents get to the root of what's wrong. She sounds very unhappy. That's a good point as well about the neglect thing. Kevin really seems to bond with Franklin when he is very young but then all that "nyeh nyeh stuff" (I found that part hilarious, as frustrating as it was for Eva!!!!) and the pretending to be the "gee dad!!" Happy Days style son, is such an awful dig at him, one which Franklin completely falls for. I think its a mixture of ignorance and yeah a failure to see his son as having problems, especially with what happens to Celia. I still can't make my mind up about whether he blinded Celia, and the bit about that weird creature that went missing. Is it implying he told Celia that the weird creature was inside the bottle of bleach? I guess when he eats the lychees it also implies that he did do it.
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Post by sheila on Feb 10, 2008 19:36:43 GMT -1
Courtney- D Mary- D Kez-D Katiemay- D TC- D Hen- R Karo - D Katie (dearling) - Done baby Ange - R Baggie - D Sheila - R
Just got my copy, and about 20 pages in. I've been afraid to come into this thread for fear of the discussion already going on!!
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Post by astralweeks on Feb 15, 2008 2:47:42 GMT -1
I'm reading but very slowly, sorry. It's not the brightest of books to be reading, in current circs, so I'm only spending a bit of time with it a day. I'm really happy for others to review it, if you want to do that. I've avoided the thread for a while, after seeing some insights into the plot in posts so post away ladies and I'll have a look at your opinions when I finally finish.
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Post by ange on Feb 15, 2008 18:03:35 GMT -1
Aye i'm not getting much time to sit with it. Carry on the discussion and i'll be sure to nip in and give my opinion when i eventually do finish it.
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Post by henriette on Feb 22, 2008 5:44:57 GMT -1
Courtney- D Mary- D Kez-D Katiemay- D TC- D Hen- D Karo - D Katie (dearling) - Done baby Ange - R Baggie - D Sheila - R
Finally done. Jesus. The last few pages surprised the fuck out of me.
I don't believe people are born evil. In my opinion nature and nurture are both factors that decide how we turn out. But I must admit the book shook up that belief a bit, because throughout it I did have the 'born evil' thing lingering in my head... need to give it all a bit more thought before joining in with the debate, I think...
If anyone wants my (slightly mangled, ahem) copy of the book, just let me know.
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Post by mkk on Feb 23, 2008 0:24:52 GMT -1
oh my god, i can't wait to discuss, before i forget.
i'm on a new book, the senator's wife by sue miller. good stuff.
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Post by bagpuss on Feb 25, 2008 0:45:00 GMT -1
I'm on 4;
"Atonement" - Ian McEwan "The Second Plane" - Martin Amis "The God Delusion" - Richard Dawkins "God Is Not Great" - Christopher Hitchens.
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Post by sheila on Feb 25, 2008 10:17:35 GMT -1
I'm done, wow. Anyone want to come up with some book club style discusssion questions we could all answer and opine on?
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Post by Kez on Feb 26, 2008 10:19:16 GMT -1
Yeah we should start discussing it soon shouldn't we?
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Post by cvillecmd on Feb 26, 2008 16:12:23 GMT -1
Aren't there questions at the back of the book? I don't have my copy with me though.
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Post by tc on Mar 4, 2008 16:03:27 GMT -1
I think he was born evil. The fact that the daughter was a sweetheart was put in the book to show that the mother didn't shape Kevin's character to that extent. In my opinion, anyway.
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Post by dearling on Mar 4, 2008 17:02:29 GMT -1
I think it's a mix - I think you're born with a certain temperament, but the environment shapes how that comes out. So I think Kevin had a horrid temperament, but his environment helped shape how he expressed that, not that I think it's the mom or dad's fault (our environment is SO MUCH more than that), but more that I think a different environment might have ameliorated the "problem."
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Post by Kez on Mar 6, 2008 15:14:46 GMT -1
Well see the reason I think he wasn't born evil was the two vastly different experiences she had while she was pregnant. When she was pregnant with Kevin, from the outset she saw it all differently and acted and felt differently, she always described it as an "Invasion". I don't know all that much about childbirth but having those sorts of feelings and emotions going on you sort of wonder how much of th at is transferred to the child.
As the book is written completely from her perception of things you can't always be sure that what she is telling is the truth, she certainly believes when Kevin is born that he was born evil but then towards then end I think she questions that a lot more.
and just edited to say that I just saw that dearling said that too!
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